[Menvi-discuss] Accessible music notation software

Thu Apr 20 02:07:10 EDT 2023

Thanks Mark,  appreciate your candid answer of what Musescore can and can’t do.

I chose Good Feel because I wanted everything in the one box without having to go from one programme to the next to get the job done.  Being able to work with the Braille and the notation simultaneously rather than just export is also brilliant.

But you might be interested to know that one of our transcribers here has Good Feel provided but still prefers after scanning with Sharp Eye to then export the xml and work in Muse Score and then back to Good Feel for the Braille translation.  I can certainly see for a sighted transcriber where the advantages are there.

I didn’t give Musescore more than the briefest look as I didn’t want to invest too much time into learning something when I was sure it wasn’t the direction I was going.  But no I didn’t know about the Alt keys.  That is great info for knowing to pass on to anyone else giving it an initial look.  Can’t say I would love that option though as I have some arthritis and hate having to hold down any one key for an extended period of time.

Jeanie

From: Menvi-discuss On Behalf Of Marc Sabatella via Menvi-discuss
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2023 3:07 PM
To: This is for discussing music and braille literacy <menvi-discuss at menvi.org>
Cc: Marc Sabatella <marc at outsideshore.com>
Subject: Re: [Menvi-discuss] Accessible music notation software

I'd be curious to know what difficulties you encountered with MuseScore, or if you used the various tutorials and accessibility guides to help you.  It is indeed a big and complex program and very sophisticated in its notation and playback capabilities.  As such does take a while to fully master, for sighted people as well.  But basic score browsing is actually extremely simple.  For best results with keyboard and screen reader, mostly you just need Alt plus Left, Right, Up, and Down to move horizontally or vertically through your score.  Knowing about Alt is perhaps the key you were missing; without that, you won't navigate through a lot of symbols, and you can't navigate vertically.  Alt is the key, literally.

Anyhow, that said, I think there is almost no chance MuseScore would do nearly as well as the Dancing Dots software in converting MusicXML to Braille.  The Braille export in MuseScore was created as a summer hobby project by a former contributor, and it was an amazing gift to the community, but GOODFEEL has at this point decades of work put into it and encompasses more than just an automatic translation.  But perhaps a better point of comparison would be the free BrailleMUSE converter.  The Sao Mai folks are helping improve the Braille facilities going forward, so I suspect that in the not distant future MuseScore would be able to fully replace BrailleMUSE for people looking for free & automatic tools.  But GOODFEEL and Lime Aloud offer the potential for much more than just automatic translation, and it's unlikely MsueScore would be competing with that any time soon, if ever.

Marc

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 6:25 PM Jeanie Willis via Menvi-discuss <menvi-discuss at menvi.org <mailto:menvi-discuss at menvi.org> > wrote:

Hi,

Just wondering if anyone has done a comparison by importing an xml into Muse Score and exporting to Braille and like wise done the same xml in Lime/Good Feel.  I would be interested to hear the results of a comparison.

I have only had the briefest play with Muse Score using its reading aloud features.  I quickly got frustrated that it seemed it would take a lot of learning to work out how to navigate.  Lime on the other hand in my first instance arrowed and tabbed around just as if I was in a document, reading all as it went.  Then with lime being able to hear and get info on note at a time, or that note plus other notes in its staff, or that note plus everything it sounds with on the score and move around like that is amazing.  Being able to arrow up and down a vertical point of a beat and have each note read so you can work with the harmonies is also brilliant.

I would highly recommend Lime’s ability to navigate and read what you need.  I’d still like a bit more control over what it reads and doesn’t and some short cuts for that to turn them on and off.  But otherwise the screen navigation and reading is excellent.

I would say though that as a music notation software alone I think it is pretty basic and having to find so many things in menus rather than pallets or on the key pad for pallets like in Sibelius is a bit slow to use.  The playing in notes from an on screen keyboard for sighted users or using the home row of keyboard for white notes and black notes above is cute.  This may appeal to kids , but not so much to experienced music writers or non pianists.  But redundant if you have a midi keyboard and most sighted users would prefer to just click the notes on the score with the mouse more like writing.  So I’m yet to see how fast I can get with this.  But may see if it can be recustomised with shortcuts to use RH to type letters for notes and a huge bunch of other things on shortcuts that those keys in the middle are currently taking up.  It is however the only programme I’ve seen that you can play in two or more notes at a time using the qwerty keyboard.  So maybe for someone who isn’t a fabulous touch typist this might be really good.  However if you aren’t a great touch typist good luck finding things like left and right brackets and common things like slurs hidden on 9, 0, plus and equals, what a pain to stretch to.  My Sibelius used to be customised to have things like S for slur, T for Tie, etc and letter names for note entry, which is pretty fast.

Jeanie

From: Menvi-discuss On Behalf Of Marc Sabatella via Menvi-discuss
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2023 9:18 AM
To: This is for discussing music and braille literacy <menvi-discuss at menvi.org <mailto:menvi-discuss at menvi.org> >
Cc: Marc Sabatella <marc at outsideshore.com <mailto:marc at outsideshore.com> >
Subject: Re: [Menvi-discuss] Accessible music notation software

MuseScore 4 can indeed export to Braille, and from what I understand it does reasonably well - except, no text support.  There is also ongoing work to integrate live Braille display, and to improve the Braille export, and hopefully  to include text soon.  We expect to see 4.1 release later this year and with luck these features will be included.

Also, for the record, I am but one of many developers who has contributed to the accessibility of MuseScore.

Marc

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 2:23 PM Dewald van Deventer via Menvi-discuss <menvi-discuss at menvi.org <mailto:menvi-discuss at menvi.org> > wrote:

Hi all. Thanks Rachael. I do have a Mac. I have learned a few pieces with Midi. I was using QWS on Windows with a lot of success. 

THANK you Ella for your reply. I have tested exporting to BRF with Musescore 4, and was thinking of doing it that way you have described. 

I have also tested Lime and Goodfeel, but just thought it would be nice to figure out a way for people who can't afford software like Lime etc. 

I have spoken to Mark Sabatella, the guy who made Musescore accessible, and who also included the exporting function.

They are still working on it further. 

Any other suggestions are welcome. 

Dewald van Deventer 

Happy Pianos "RPT"

Piano tuning Kempton Park EAST Rand

Cell:

0824614865

E-mail:

dewaldpianotuner at gmail.com <mailto:dewaldpianotuner at gmail.com> 

Visit my website:

Http://www.Happy-Pianos.com/

Go "like" my page:

http://www.facebook.com/HappyPianos/

Happy Pianos

   We'll make your piano smile and sing again! 

On 19 Apr 2023, at 18:27, Rachel Harris via Menvi-discuss <menvi-discuss at menvi.org <mailto:menvi-discuss at menvi.org> > wrote:

Do you use a mac? I know Logic Prro has lots of flexibility in terms of midi files being imported into the software; is that what you’re looking for? It should be able to convert the notation to midi so you can learn by listening to the piece, and it has lots of flexibility regarding turning certain parts(left vs. Right hand) on and off, among other features.not sure if this is what you’re looking for, plus I don’t know anything about braille notation(I have laways learned my music by ear. It seems more practical since most instruments, such as piano, require you to play with two hands, but reading braille also takes two hands.)

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 11:59 AM Dewald van Deventer via Menvi-discuss <menvi-discuss at menvi.org <mailto:menvi-discuss at menvi.org> > wrote:

Hi all. It's been a while since I've posted here. I've only recently resubscribed, so sorry if I am reposting a question. 

I would like to know from you guys how you learn new pieces, especially for piano. 
I've played with a few programs like Ibos, Braille Music Reader, Braille Music Editor, etc. and music notation software like Lime from Dancing Dots, etc. 
But I am looking for a way to import an XML file that you can download from the internet, "I use Musescore's library", and have it displayed in Braille, and that can play it back to you. 
Braille Music Reader is amazing, but it supports all kind of weird file formats. 
Ibos only displays one measure at a time...
Musescore is developing nicely. You can even export to BRF now. 
Optimally, it would be nice to have an app on my phone or iPad to sit at the piano, and browse through my score, and even disable dynamic markings at first, etc. 
If any of you can give me some advice on how you do it. 

Thanks,
Dewald. 

Dewald van Deventer 
Happy Pianos "RPT"
Piano tuning Kempton Park EAST Rand
Cell:
0824614865
E-mail:
dewaldpianotuner at gmail.com <mailto:dewaldpianotuner at gmail.com> 
Visit my website:
Http://www.Happy-Pianos.com/
Go "like" my page:
http://www.facebook.com/HappyPianos/

Happy Pianos
   We'll make your piano smile and sing again! 
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Marc Sabatella
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