<div dir="ltr">Hi Patrick,<div><br></div><div>Thank you so much for sharing your experience as a highly experienced sighted braille music transcriber. For those following this discussion, I highly recommend checking out the materials I posted on this list yesterday from the DAISY Consortium, as they go into this sort of issue in quite a bit of depth.</div><div><br></div><div>I do think that manual six-key entry is the way to go in several situations, especially if lots of non-standard or complex notation is involved. Percussion music and contemporary classical pieces involving extended techniques are just a few examples I can think of. As for how to use technology to best transcribe print music into braille, the last few messages in this thread give a pretty good picture of how this process is done. First and foremost, the sighted transcriber needs to be proficient with notation software and good engraving practices. Although musical OCR may be useful sometimes, it is oftentimes more efficient to manually enter the score into notation software from the hard copy or PDF/image file. Once the print score has been checked over for errors and engraving problems, the results can be exported as MusicXML and run through a MusicXML to braille converter, and the resulting braille conversion can be further checked for issues to correct. In this process, the initial work done in notation software will usually be the most time-consuming, depending on the complexity of the score. Ultimately, assuming all the tools do a good job, is it faster to use notation software and automated converters to get braille music, or is it more efficient to enter the braille music manually six-key entry style? The notation software > automated braille music translator method is suitable for a wider range of situations, as it (obviously) makes it a lot easier for sighted transcribers with little to no knowledge of braille music to get involved in the process, but how might things be different if the same person was proficient in braille music reading and transcription?</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 2:27 PM Patrick Janson via Menvi-discuss <<a href="mailto:menvi-discuss@menvi.org">menvi-discuss@menvi.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="msg-8210595957802485931">
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Hello All,</div>
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SUCH an interesting conversation. Thanks for all your thoughtful input!</div>
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As a sighted transcriber, I currently transcribe everything off of a PDF, no matter if it is music alone or pages of a music textbook. When I started in the industry 10 years ago, I asked veteran transcribers if there were other/better methods than six-key
entry for the music. Their reply was that they tried some of them (or heard about others trying them) and resigned themselves that six-key input for music was fastest and most reliable. We can grab the text from a music textbook with OCR software, of course,
but that the music is cleanest in inputting and proofreading/editing with the manual six-key method in Braille2000.</div>
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However, maybe they were "veterans" in the way that they didn't wish to learn new technologies. I am open to it, surely. So, if someone were to suggest a way a sighted transcriber could use software to speed up entry of music into braille, I would definitely
listen. I am passionate about training and developing future music braille transcribers, and I would like to know the best methods!</div>
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Patrick Janson</div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">President of the National Braille Association</span></div>
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Owner of Braille Music and More</div>
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<a href="http://www.braillemusicandmore.com" target="_blank">www.braillemusicandmore.com</a></div>
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<div id="m_-8210595957802485931divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Menvi-discuss <<a href="mailto:menvi-discuss-bounces@menvi.org" target="_blank">menvi-discuss-bounces@menvi.org</a>> on behalf of Jeanie Willis via Menvi-discuss <<a href="mailto:menvi-discuss@menvi.org" target="_blank">menvi-discuss@menvi.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 15, 2023 3:27 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'This is for discussing music and braille literacy' <<a href="mailto:menvi-discuss@menvi.org" target="_blank">menvi-discuss@menvi.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Jeanie Willis <<a href="mailto:jeaniewillis@gmail.com" target="_blank">jeaniewillis@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Menvi-discuss] File format for braille transcription</font>
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<p><span>Hi Betty and all,</span></p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<p><span>I would echo Ella and Daniels thoughts. I know a lot of sighted transcribers who now use conversion to xml as their first step in producing Braille and many of them have now switched to using Sao Mai as it is evolving
very quickly into an excellent tool that has some advantages over GoodFeel in working with finger numbering, handling slurs, staff text and many other areas. This works best when the xml is exported from MuseScore as the Daisy project has worked with MuseScore
and SaoMai to optimise this. So, the point here though is that a sighted transcriber will want to create the xml themselves from the print score, or at least have the print score available to check to make sure the xml is all created correctly in whatever
there preferred music notation software is. If you are giving an xml to any transcriber it would fall on you to make sure that xml is accurate enough and not missing anything and there is no perfect scanning solution. I have tested out a lot of this stuff
and have found Sharp Eye to be by far the best and it can be bought separately from GoodFeel direct from its developers website for I think around $150US off the top of my head.</span></p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<p><span>This is a bit off topic, but I think worth pointing out because of the huge amount of work that Bill and Dancing Dots have done over the years in developing the GoodFeel Suite and I know some of these others are taking
over somewhat now. For partially sighted users who want a good solution to reading for performance. The Lime Lighter software still has a huge range of features that no one else is offering in the way it can be blown up, manipulated and scrolled with pedals.</span></p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<p><span>As Ella said, MuseScore 4.1 is very limited in its direct Braille export. It is about to get an upgrade with the release of 4.2 in the next couple of weeks. I think Ella might be already testing the Beta and I understand
it has some more elements added, but would still be useful as a quick access draft of notes. However, once you have downloaded SMB from Sao Mai and got it set up creating a score from a good xml takes about 30 seconds to open SMB, Start a New Document, Press
Alt + F11 to add music file, select your file and then press Ctrl T to translate. Results are phenomenal, I do a bit of editing just because I can sometimes add some more Braile repeats that are actually the same but it didn’t use repeat signs because the
second time had a few less fingering or something that made it technically not identical even though the music is and I clean up the formatting a bit, but honestly you could just run with it. You can emboss from there, save as brf, or cut and paste to whatever
you like such as Duxbury.</span></p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<p><span>So you might want to think about what format you want your end product in. My current transcriber here gives me both the MuseScore files and the Braille files when done, so I am really lucky to have both to read the Braille,
listen and have notes read out to me on MuseScore and examine it like a print score and could then also make changes later if I wanted to. The MuseScore file also means I have an accessible print version if I wanted to make changes and give to a student,
or create an mp3 or even a slowed down mp3 for them to listen to or practice with. I am also transcribing a lot of my own junior supllementary pieces by scanning into Sharp Eye, editing what I can in Musescore and then am paying someone to check and edit
the MuseScore files to the print, from there I can create my own Braille from the perfected MuseScore file.</span></p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<p><span>So if anyone is ever needing early grade piano supplementary materials please get in touch with me. I’ve just finished transcribing Piano Adventures Fun Time Christmas and Bastien Christmas Level 2 plus sporadic songs
from 15 other junior Christmas books. I’m really hoping I can get these proofed by the Blind Low Vision NZ team and put through their library to share with all via ABC, but that may take some time to get the process through all the red tape and systems.
So in the mean time I am considering approaching publishers direct for permission to share these as well as much of the Trinity exam resources I have.</span></p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<p><span>Jeanie</span></p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<p><span> </span></p>
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<p><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> Menvi-discuss
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ella Yu via Menvi-discuss<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, December 16, 2023 8:31 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> This is for discussing music and braille literacy <<a href="mailto:menvi-discuss@menvi.org" target="_blank">menvi-discuss@menvi.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Ella Yu <<a href="mailto:ellaxyu@gmail.com" target="_blank">ellaxyu@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Menvi-discuss] File format for braille transcription</span></p>
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<p>Hey Daniel, I really like your answer. I do want to quickly point out something about MuseScore. Yes, MuseScore now has the ability to export directly in braille, but I do not recommend using that feature, as it is very primitive, and
it only really exports notes and a small number of other things and leaves out lots of important information. This means that specialized music braille translators, such as GoodFeel, are still necessary. As you pointed out, you can easily take a MusicXML that
came out of MuseScore (insert any notation program like Finale, Sibelius or Dorico), import it into Lime, and run it through GoodFeel.</p>
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<p>Those of us who can't justify spending money on GoodFeel, myself included, use free alternatives, and we also tend to use MuseScore in order to avoid paying for the other notation packages. For a long time, the online MusicXML to braille
translation site BrailleMUSE was the way to go, as it provided decent (but not great) output at no cost. Recently, a new option called Sao Mai Braille has become available, so I have switched to that from BrailleMUSE because the braille music output it produces
is of rather high quality. FWIW, Sao Mai Braille has many other uses outside braille music too.</p>
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<p>On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 11:11 AM Daniel Gillen via Menvi-discuss <<a href="mailto:menvi-discuss@menvi.org" target="_blank">menvi-discuss@menvi.org</a>> wrote:</p>
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<p>Dear Betina,<br>
<br>
It sort of depends on who's transcribing the music. As someone who's blind and has been transcribing and proofreading braille music for several years, I've been working mainly with Lime and Goodfeel. Usually one of my sighted colleagues at work exports MusicXML
files into Lime, then I take over with the Goodfeel braille processing part. With something like MuseScore, MusicXML files can be more directly converted into braille, but there will also be a need for someone to proofread and edit the output. Now for any
of the sighted transcribers out there who work from the ground up, I imagine they would start out with an image of the score as a PDF, TIFF, or similar format. I would say that having a MusicXML file is most helpful for those using the more automated transcription
options, whereas image-based formats are equivalent to reading a physical hard copy of the score and are more suitable for sighted transcribers producing braille from scratch.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Daniel<br>
<br>
Daniel Gillen<br>
Braille Music Specialist<br>
The Filomen M. D'Agostino Greenberg Music School<br>
<a href="http://www.fmdgmusicschool.org" target="_blank">www.fmdgmusicschool.org</a><br>
<a href="mailto:daniel.l.gillen@gmail.com" target="_blank">daniel.l.gillen@gmail.com</a><br>
(917) 626-7299On Dec 15, 2023 1:37 PM, betina vega via Menvi-discuss <<a href="mailto:menvi-discuss@menvi.org" target="_blank">menvi-discuss@menvi.org</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Hello, <br>
><br>
> I have a question. If I want to get a few pages of a book transcribed, does it have to be converted to music XML before I can send it to a transcriber?
<br>
><br>
> Sincerely, <br>
> Betina Vega <br>
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